Question for Dave Armishaw (electrician)

[theskilledworker]

Dave, you'll get a deficiency? Is that like a slap on the wrist from a licensing board?

Sorry, Rivergirl, I don't know how I missed your post back in September.

As a contractor, you are given about two weeks to correct a deficiency which is a deviation from electrical code. Too many and you "stand out" to the inspection department. Getting one for a trivial reason, such as installing fixtures that you told the homeowner were unacceptable, is extremely upsetting.

Dave

[theskilledworker]

I'll respond to Authment and Spock, first by telling you about a call this afternoon to look at an older home in town that was owned for over 60 years by a lady who just passed away at the age of 93. Still drove a manual transmission car, but apparently went through a transmission every six months!

The house has a 60 amp service, I'll upgrade it to a hundred. I'll charge about $1200 - $1500 using aluminum feed conductors. That's from the top of the point where the overhead wires attach, through the meter base and into the panel. The new aluminum is a much stronger alloy from what we used to have in the '70's and is vastly cheaper. We used it even in very high end homes as panel feeds.

Unless you're in the southern U.S. where concrete is used rather than wooden structure, Romex is used. I've never seen BX used, but there could be exceptions i'm not aware of. #14 is used for almost all household circuits except for heating loads and the new kitchen T-slot 20 amp GFCI outlets that replace the old split circuits around kitchen sinks. (Canadian code generally runs pretty much as NEC so I'm making an assumption). #14 is used in commercial and industrial too if not specified by the engineer, although it used to be standard to use #12 (one size heavier gauge) everywhere but in homes.

It can be difficult to make a judgement about how much wiring needs to be replaced in this house. Drywall can hide a lot of junction boxes, or junctions without boxes, which is direct contravention of code. So what looks like not too bad with drywall and paint can need extensive work once the walls are opened up after the house has been purchased and "minor renovations" are begun. I refuse to hide junctions, it's against code and my own standards of workmanship.

By the way, home inspectors in our area can't take the cover off a panel let alone dig deeply enough to assess the real state of a home's wiring. If he sees "knob and tube" in the basement, he would be right to assume that the whole house needs rewiring and put in a number of say $4,000 to 10,000 depending on the size of the house.

We have 125 amp services in our area, most go to 200; never heard of 150. Your service conductors are likely not rated for more than 100. You can have an electrician upgrade your panel to a 40 cct 100 amp panel, which might be enough, of you heat with natural gas or propane. And as I said, if existing wiring has not been damaged and has a ground wire in it, no reason to replace it. In our area, new code measures are generally for new construction and for major renovations, not necessarily retroactive to existing. For example, if a kitchen has split receptacles, a home purchaser shouldn't demand they be changed to T-slot 20 amp, etc. If wiring has been properly installed it should remain reliable, although new outlets can be installed for convenience.

Dave

[John Valdes]

Hi Kathy

It's a little difficult to visualize what you are asking, since the ground wire is smaller than the other wires either in a fixture or electrical box, but also this forum is more about career advice than how-to's, for a variety of good reasons. Dave

Article 310.16 of the national electrical code maintains that all circuits of 15, 20 and 30 amp require the same size ground as the current carrying conductors. The ground wires on branch circuits (receptacles, switches, fixtures) must be the same size in the US. Manufacturers can use whatever size they like. Premise wiring cannot.

Also, many, if not most inspection authorities don't allow 14 AWG wiring any more, but specify 20A / 12 AWG as the minimum circuit size. I'm guessing that's the case here, as a 12 gauge wire will look huge compared to the usual 16 gauge fixture wiring.

Oh, and a big 'ditto' on the basement wiring comment. Garages can also be an impressive wreck. Nothing like faulty wiring and gasoline...

I have never ever had the inspection authority to require the use of #12 AWG as the minimum conductor. That is an old wives tale. #14 wire on 15 amp circuits are allowed everywhere in the US. Where did you get this information?

Residential basements and garages are not considered classified locations by the NEC. They require no special attention as far as electrical work is concerned.

It all could have been avoided by hiring a home inspectorAuthement

The best way to have the integrity of a homes electrical system checked is to call a licensed electrical contractor. And get their report in writing.
Most home inspectors are very limited as to what they can and cannot do when inspecting the electrical system.

My house currently (bad joke) has 100 amp service and I have no real "big draw" requirements. If I upgrade from a Murray 100 AMP - 20 breaker box to a 40 breaker box can I go to 150 amp service without installing a new main service line?
Are main service lines typically aluminum?

On an older house during renovation, if needed, do you replace Romex with Romex or do you prefer to switch to BX?

You will be required to upgrade the service on your side. The utility most likely will do nothing on their side.
I would never install BX when you can use much better materials today. NM (Romex) is the most popular and the least expensive method. But you do have several choices.

Sorry, Rivergirl, I don't know how I missed your post back in September.

As a contractor, you are given about two weeks to correct a deficiency which is a deviation from electrical code. Too many and you "stand out" to the inspection department. Getting one for a trivial reason, such as installing fixtures that you told the homeowner were unacceptable, is extremely upsetting.

Dave

In my area you do not get a final passed until the issues are resolved. There is rarely a time frame.

The house has a 60 amp service, I'll upgrade it to a hundred. I'll charge about $1200 - $1500 using aluminum feed conductors. That's from the top of the point where the overhead wires attach, through the meter base and into the panel. The new aluminum is a much stronger alloy from what we used to have in the '70's and is vastly cheaper. We used it even in very high end homes as panel feeds.

Changing a service from 60 amp to 100 amp would be a disservice to any of my customers. For a few more bucks you could go to 200 amp. This is the average upgrade. While I agree some homes are smaller and have low power demands, future installations must be considered. Just the addition of a heat pump for example, that 100 amp panel has to come back out and another service upgrade would be required.

(Canadian code generally runs pretty much as NEC so I'm making an assumption). #14 is used in commercial and industrial too if not specified by the engineer, although it used to be standard to use #12 (one size heavier gauge) everywhere but in homes.

Canadian codes are very different from the NEC.
Also, #12 minimum has never been a requirement in industrial, commercial or residential installations. I have worked in factories where it was SOP. But it was never a requirement by the NEC. I heard the same "old wives tale" when I was an apprentice.

I refuse to hide junctions, it's against code and my own standards of workmanship.

It's against the NEC. That itself covers anyones standard of workmanship.

By the way, home inspectors in our area can't take the cover off a panel let alone dig deeply enough to assess the real state of a home's wiring. If he sees "knob and tube" in the basement, he would be right to assume that the whole house needs rewiring and put in a number of say $4,000 to 10,000 depending on the size of the house.

Correct on the "Home Inspectors" But incorrect on the K&T. In most jurisdictions, if the house wiring (branch circuits) is not touched, extended or modified when performing a service upgrade, there would be no requirement to upgrade the K&T.

We have 125 amp services in our area, most go to 200; never heard of 150. Your service conductors are likely not rated for more than 100. You can have an electrician upgrade your panel to a 40 cct 100 amp panel, which might be enough, of you heat with natural gas or propane. And as I said, if existing wiring has not been damaged and has a ground wire in it, no reason to replace it. In our area, new code measures are generally for new construction and for major renovations, not necessarily retroactive to existing. For example, if a kitchen has split receptacles, a home purchaser shouldn't demand they be changed to T-slot 20 amp, etc. If wiring has been properly installed it should remain reliable, although new outlets can be installed for convenience.

150 amp panels are common and found in home depots and Lowes. If they do not have them, any electrical supply house will.
I have never seen a 100 amp 40 space panel? Only a 100 amp 30 space. Like said before. The branch circuit wiring in most every case will not need to be upgraded, even if it has no ground wire (EGC) included. Ungrounded branch circuits can be protected with the addition of GFCI's should the HO want them installed.
The use of 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits in kitchens and other household branch circuits are compliant, anywhere in the home, new construction or not.

Dave

I did not know Journeyman electricians could pull permits and hold contractors licenses? You do sport the JW signature on this forum.